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Go Back   FZ1OA Message Board > FZ1 & Fazer Owners Association > Exhausts, Carburetion & Performance > Gen 2 Exhausts, Fueling & Performance

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Old 03-01-2013, 04:56 AM   #81
Ivan
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Originally Posted by duts87ss View Post
Ivan,
I absolutely understand your concern about doing fuel mods is most cases. There will be a lot of work involved; I've got many hours of driving my car around getting data logs and making adjustments (and I still don't feel like it's quite close enough to put on the dyno for fine tuning). Once you do a full tune for your fully modded bike, though, this new tune should apply equally (I personally think better) well as your E-map.

I would definitely recommend looking into making acceleration enrichment/pump shot adjustments for the first run of mail order tunes, though. It will help clean up throttle transitions (I'm sure you know this already, I'm just thinking out loud so to speak).

I don't care for the method of modifying the fuel by PC III/IV because it makes changes at a given TP and given RPM. An engine at half throttle and 5000rpm will need different fueling and timing going up hill as opposed to down hill. Load-based mapping is a much better method. As much as I don't like it, the PC is the only method we having for making changes at the moment.

I will be looking into solving the "papaaaaaa" according to Troy... this has to do with acceleration enrichment values when suddenly full throttling it below 6000 rpm.

Load based mapping is useful if you have a small intake on a large engine.... (a car) The TB's are so large on this engine that vacuum is destroyed once the throttle is opened appx. 15%...
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Old 03-01-2013, 04:59 AM   #82
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Originally Posted by SoCalFZRider View Post
Any consideration of correcting the fueling vs temperature when the ECU is open loop/O2 sensor disconnected, or is that buried too deep in the fuel table algorithms?
I don't know yet... if the tables are there, it assume will be possible.


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Old 03-01-2013, 05:13 AM   #83
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Originally Posted by KBay84 View Post
Well, I was hoping a 2010 FZ1 with EFI & reflash versus '97 bike with carbs and a slip-on would produce better results. I'll wait for Ivan's responce, but you may be right. I want to hear it from the horse's mouth. If the bottom end and mids are significantly better, I'd be in.
You are comparing a 1970 big block 440 mopar to a modern 392 Hemi.... the low end power of the old motor is a lot more, but fades away after 5000-5500 compared to the newer engine that is softer below 3000, but will carry on another 1500-2000 rpm, making more power on the top end.
(please don't hyjack this thread from this comment)

The bandit is 200cc larger, (15-20 lb/ft more) and uses low overlap cams and small intake ports and valves = high velocity = instant torque from low rpm.

The FZ-1 is a short stroke/ large valve area, higher valve overlap cams = poor trapping efficiency below 4000 rpm.... this is this engine's signature since 1985 on the first Maxim X 5valve.... this engine will never be a tiger below 4000 rpm.

Even the first gen bike with a longer stroke, milder cams, smaller ports, and intake and long tube headers, doesn't really wake up until 4-4500 rpm.

There is no amount of fuel or timing changes that will make the 2 bikes close below 4000 rpm.


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Old 03-01-2013, 05:25 AM   #84
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The more I read here, the more pumped I get. You've taken on a big task here, Ivan, but it could be a huge improvement... I think you can count me in.

However, I see that you were starting with a 2006 version, moving into the 2008, and that you didn't have a 2010-2012 tester yet. Once the first one is fine-tuned, how long would you get the delay would be to the 2012 model mod?
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Old 03-01-2013, 07:06 AM   #85
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Old 03-01-2013, 07:10 AM   #86
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Originally Posted by Ivan View Post
You are comparing a 1970 big block 440 mopar to a modern 392 Hemi.... the low end power of the old motor is a lot more, but fades away after 5000-5500 compared to the newer engine that is softer below 3000, but will carry on another 1500-2000 rpm, making more power on the top end.
(please don't hyjack this thread from this comment)

The bandit is 200cc larger, (15-20 lb/ft more) and uses low overlap cams and small intake ports and valves = high velocity = instant torque from low rpm.

The FZ-1 is a short stroke/ large valve area, higher valve overlap cams = poor trapping efficiency below 4000 rpm.... this is this engine's signature since 1985 on the first Maxim X 5valve.... this engine will never be a tiger below 4000 rpm.

Even the first gen bike with a longer stroke, milder cams, smaller ports, and intake and long tube headers, doesn't really wake up until 4-4500 rpm.

There is no amount of fuel or timing changes that will make the 2 bikes close below 4000 rpm.
Ivan
Thank you for the clarification, Ivan! No
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Old 03-01-2013, 08:50 AM   #87
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HA HA! I've been named! That is so funny that came back up. I should not be surprised that you remembered all that though, Ivan. It's funny about that, I can actually just as easily make my wife's basically stock 2009 R6 do the very same thing. Our hands turning the throttle can be faster than the ecu's ability to keep up, which is very strange. I don't think I can get my car to do that, however, but maybe I could try. Were older carbs better that way, with instant enrichment?

I don't have a problem with it anymore, but that's because I learned to not try to make it happen. It was a curiosity, and I do wonder if it's all these restrictions they put in there. I do wonder how a computer can lag behind our hands?

This is very interesting in development stuff, Ivan. I'm definitely getting more and more interested.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivan View Post
I will be looking into solving the "papaaaaaa" according to Troy... this has to do with acceleration enrichment values when suddenly full throttling it below 6000 rpm.

Load based mapping is useful if you have a small intake on a large engine.... (a car) The TB's are so large on this engine that vacuum is destroyed once the throttle is opened appx. 15%...
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Old 03-01-2013, 09:25 AM   #88
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Well, as usual I will give my two cents even though NO ONE asked for it! But Hey, it's free.....

I agree with Ivan about not meddling with the fuel tables. Based upon my experience with the Hayabusa/BKing computer which is fully opened up for computer modification, you can really screw up a motor. I see so many bikes with PCIII and V that are SLOWER than stock. The owner grabs a map from some internet guy and the bike is slower, but the onwer thinks he is quicker. The mind is the most easily fooled thing on our body. That is why Ivan has to work with a dyno.

Back to my main point, when you get into these tables there are too many things to change such as TPS position, Secondary throtttle plate position, Ignition timing for all throttle positions, Tempature controlled files, Air density sensor files, in essence you becom the engineer who designed and tuned all this stuff, BUT you don't have the time, knowledge or mega dyno hours to really get it all right. That's Ivans job!

What Ivan is proposing seems like the best, easiest, plug and play program for the FZ. Remember it is much easier to slow a bike down than get HP. Ivan will have the real deal when the time comes. Also, if you fry your motor on the PCV, Ivan doesn't have to listen to people bad mouthing his product! They will have to call the PCV company and bitch.
My experience with my own company years ago lets me think that Ivan is doing it "right". Good Luck guys, you have great support on that 5 valve motor from Ivan!

Oh, and don't forget to put that new 16 or 15 tooth front sprocket on.......
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Old 03-01-2013, 09:29 AM   #89
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Our hands turning the throttle can be faster than the ecu's ability to keep up, which is very strange
That is almost never true that the ECU is not fast enough. It can be the DBW programming is such that the delay is detectable. With access to the underlying tables, this also can be fixed.

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Old 03-01-2013, 03:37 PM   #90
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Originally Posted by Ivan View Post
A higher rev-limit will not significantly shorten the crank and rod's life... this is a short stroke R1 motor (with a heavier crank and a few other minor changes)

A rev limit of 12,300 (up 500 from stock) is still way less than the R1's of 13,750.... which was the original design.... it'll live just fine.

But, I will offer that as a choice for those opposed to it.


Ivan
If by choice can I get a rev limit of 12,800? Obviously I'd need to see a dyno graph to see if its worth it to go that high, but I bet it will give me enough over-rev to keep the rpms where they need to be when shifting. I want to shift a few hundred rpm after peak HP
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Old 03-01-2013, 03:43 PM   #91
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I think most of us here are most concerned about the price.
Ivan.... where you at on this?
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Old 03-01-2013, 04:07 PM   #92
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Leave fueling at the PCV is Fine with me as these are easy to work with and most all tuners know how to use them and you’re also not stuck with just one guys map. Unless Ivan finds something really wrong with the stock map he would probably best to leave that alone and focus on the government nannies that I think we all would like to have removed. Just think no add on FCE, I like that idea and if Ivan cracks it I hope he benefits to replace sales of the FCE.
I agree with Whittle though that the computer is not slow that’s a bogus statement. Just take the tank off and air box and carefully watch the secondary flies work, they are not supper slow and only trail the first flies by just a little. And to run the fuel injection program and ignition think about the speed those numbers are flying by at.
Remember the old CV carbs only move the slide upon vacuum and it wasn’t as fast as the butterfly valve. 4 strokes don’t like whack a throttle they are slow to build vacuum and are hard to tune so I think the secondary and other parameters are trying to mimic the CV float and slow the air fuel mixture just a bit to give the engine time to react and not just flood the engine with too much air/fuel at low engine speeds. I found that the engine was slow to respond with no flies below 4000rpm and would occasionally bog down which usually = too much air/fuel.
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Old 03-01-2013, 07:25 PM   #93
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A bog at 4000 RPM when not running flies is a tuning issue.

Andy
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Old 03-02-2013, 02:17 AM   #94
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Originally Posted by whittlebeast View Post
A bog at 4000 RPM when not running flies is a tuning issue.

Andy
I agree 100% with you my bike haven't that kind of problem.

One question to Ivan to flash is made external with k-can line or you must open a hole in the ecu?
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Old 03-02-2013, 03:50 AM   #95
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I think most of us here are most concerned about the price.
Ivan.... where you at on this?
When I am 100% finished and ready to do them, I will give the price.... This will depend on how much money was spent, and time invested on my end.

I am not in this alone.... this is a combined effort.


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Old 03-02-2013, 03:51 AM   #96
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I agree 100% with you my bike haven't that kind of problem.

One question to Ivan to flash is made external with k-can line or you must open a hole in the ecu?

You will need to figure this out yourself.


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Old 03-02-2013, 03:52 AM   #97
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If by choice can I get a rev limit of 12,800? Obviously I'd need to see a dyno graph to see if its worth it to go that high, but I bet it will give me enough over-rev to keep the rpms where they need to be when shifting. I want to shift a few hundred rpm after peak HP


12,250 is where it should be.... I'll have graphs next week.

If you are running an R1 intake cam w/ stock R1 stacks, then it would need to be raised above 12,250.


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Last edited by Ivan; 03-02-2013 at 04:19 AM. Reason: added info
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Old 03-02-2013, 05:43 AM   #98
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Have you found the AFR offset yet? It seems/tends to happen when you are on the highway for about 5 min and going about 60 MPH. I is not very predictable. I see it about 1 out of ten rides.

Andy
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Holeshot Highmount quiet, No-Mar Fender Eliminator, SW-MOTECH Bar risers and Crashbars with Saten666 highway pegs, HEL Stainless brake lines, PC5 with full time widebands and data logging running a MAP based custom map tuned with MegaLogViewer HD, T-Rex Frame sliders, 16 - 45 gears, Throttlemeister.
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Old 03-02-2013, 07:04 AM   #99
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Have you found the AFR offset yet? It seems/tends to happen when you are on the highway for about 5 min and going about 60 MPH. I is not very predictable. I see it about 1 out of ten rides.

Andy
Do you think this happens on the 2010 ECU that you had some time with as well as your 2008 ?


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Old 03-02-2013, 07:36 AM   #100
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You will need to figure this out yourself.


Ivan
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