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Go Back   FZ1OA Message Board > FZ1 & Fazer Owners Association > Exhausts, Carburetion & Performance > Gen 1 Exhausts, Carburetion & Performance

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Old 02-21-2018, 11:08 AM   #381
rdcusmc
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Grommet,
Thanks for the props. I could have used those extra ponies to keep up on the last Arkansas gather!!

Ron
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2003 Blue FZ1 - Ivan's MB Jet kit, Akrapovic, GOEC w/remote and GPS, 07 R1 fork conversion w/6 pot brakes, R1 master cylinder, R1 rear wheel w/R6 caliper, Penske shock, Dirt Road seat, AIS removed, HID and LED lights, full Givi luggage, Galfer lines, chain oiler, Rizoma bar, cat-eye turn signals above headlights, grip heaters, factory lower fairings, air box mod w/high flow filter, Cometic thin head gasket, FazerPhil large gas tank mod (in progress).
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Old 02-21-2018, 11:25 AM   #382
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RIDER1 View Post
~160 hp at the crank is impressive! when a stock FZ1 is 140, nice work

would there be any gains to just doing the head gasket (when you already have the jet kit)? or would you have to change the cam timing as well if you do the head gasket?
My .02:
-If you do the head gasket, depending on which one you use, will give you a bump of 2-3hp. For the effort, probably not worth just doing this alone. I used the Cometic thinner gasket based on my conversations with Longeze and with Cometic. I'm happy with it and it gives a slight bump in compression over the R1 gasket.

-Best bang for the buck is to port your boots, perform the filter box mod and add high flow filter along with Ivan's MB jet kit (the one for a full system vs slip-on). Solid 5 hp, maybe a little more, from this mod alone as evidenced by Ivan and others on the board. Porting the boots is a no brainer since it only requires a little Dremel work. Easy to get rid of that nasty edge which hinders airflow into the head. Same for the airbox mod - just a little cutting with the Dremel and you are done. Not hard at all.

-Valve timing. By changing the head gasket, you are altering the cam timing by roughly a couple degrees. In my mind, if you go to the trouble to swap the head gasket, I'd de-carbon the piston tops, clean up the head flashing (since it is off the bike), clean up the valves and give them, particularly the exhausts, a solid polish and hand time the cams. There are legit gains from hand timing that I think are worth it. Probably 2-3 hp.

I was at 129 RWHP for my baseline run with Ivan's slip on jet kit, a slip-on and a 4 degree advancer (which I ditched since I was hand-timing the cams). I picked up 9 hp peak but gains of up to 13 hp across the meat of the range with these mods. Same for torque as you can see in the previous dyno graph. The mods this time around are not magic: reasonable compression bump, improved airflow w improved jetting, and better valve tuning. I think it was well worth the cost and encourage any and all to adopt. Makes for a noticeable difference in output and fun for sure.

Best,
Ron
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2003 Blue FZ1 - Ivan's MB Jet kit, Akrapovic, GOEC w/remote and GPS, 07 R1 fork conversion w/6 pot brakes, R1 master cylinder, R1 rear wheel w/R6 caliper, Penske shock, Dirt Road seat, AIS removed, HID and LED lights, full Givi luggage, Galfer lines, chain oiler, Rizoma bar, cat-eye turn signals above headlights, grip heaters, factory lower fairings, air box mod w/high flow filter, Cometic thin head gasket, FazerPhil large gas tank mod (in progress).

Last edited by rdcusmc; 02-21-2018 at 12:06 PM.
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Old 02-21-2018, 03:47 PM   #383
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Maybe I missed it. With the compression increase and new valve timing, have you increased the fuel octane requirements of the engine?
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Old 02-21-2018, 04:23 PM   #384
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Longeze I think has spoken to this. If I remember correctly he is running pump gas with no problem but it might be helpful if he commented again. I’ve run a tank and didn’t see or hear anything that concerned me. That said I may run higher octane to insure no problems and to have the slight performance increase.

Ron
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Old 02-21-2018, 06:26 PM   #385
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Sounds as if it is just fine on the 87. If the bike had a knock sensor and retarded timing to run on lower octane to prevent pinging, then a higher octane might provide some performance increase. Doubtful simply switching to higher octane will give any increase, possibly a microscopic decrease.
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Old 02-21-2018, 10:23 PM   #386
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To the question of why Yamaha didn't build the bike to this performance level, I suspect the answer is at least in part, found in some of the responses in the first couple pages of this thread (eg: #2 #22 #24 #27). Summarizing them amounts to "Why would you want to do that? Fz1 is fast enough already."

As to octane requirements changing in response to a head gasket swap, the answer varies depending on which avenue you take, as there are 6 alternatives that I'm aware of: 1) R1 gasket, 2) R1 "race" gasket, 3) Split a gasket and use the center leaf, 4) Split a gasket and use the 2 outer leaves, 5) Use a thin gasket and angle mill the head(my preference if time & $ not an issue), 6) A gasket Cometic made to my spec, which I described earlier in this thread. It's thinner still than the R1 "race" gasket and has smaller diameters cut into the bores. IIRC, that gasket raised my compression to 12.3:1.

Knocking in a high RPM engine is only a problem at lower RPM. As was alluded to, using higher octane ratings is only a performance benefit in that it allows more advanced ignition timing, otherwise it's a deficit to performance(slower flame travel). There's also the question of how much alcohol is in your gas. More alcohol = less tendency to knock. That said, using "regular" 87 pump gas, I've experienced slight knocking at lower RPM in warm weather if I accelerate briskly under high load such as when starting out off idle and quickly opening the throttle from there, after the clutch is fully engaged. If I raise rpms & slip the clutch a bit more, there's no issue. I can run as hard as I want above 4000RPM on "regular" gas. I haven't tried to retard my timing to correct that low rpm knock issue since I have other plans. I've tried both 89 mid grade gas and 93 premium both with good result - no knock. My subjective impression is that my bike runs better on premium than on mid grade - it shouldn't, but go figure. It pulls noticeably harder on regular than it does on premium. My preference is to buy mid grade or premium, unless I expect to ride hard such as doing data logging or taking a hop to the drag strip, in which case I run regular gas and pay attention to how I accelerate. Since I run 4Deg. ignition advance and have my throttle sensor set to bring it in early, it's entirely possible that you could tune out any knock & safely run regular gas all the time without worry even with my thinner gasket. On the R1 board, I've read that guys running the R1 gaskets run regular gas without issue. My fuel economy is excellent BTW... YMMV ;)
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Old 02-22-2018, 04:44 AM   #387
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Marc,
Super post - thanks again for the insights on octane and knock. I'm planning to continue running either mid-grade or premium. I'll have to re-read your post on ignition advance...

Ron
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Old 02-22-2018, 06:19 AM   #388
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Thanks Ron and Marc. Obviously Ivan as well. Appreciate the informative feedback and all that has been covered here. You guys rock!
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Old 02-22-2018, 05:57 PM   #389
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Wayne... Garth... I meant to comment on cam timing as relates to hp production.. FWIW, to the best of my knowledge, changing cam timing won't increase your HP, it only shifts it up or down to produce peak HP at a different RPM. So as Ron pointed out, he gets more HP than he had at lower RPM, BUT.. the maximum HP production shouldn't increase or decrease from changing cam timing alone.

As I'm thinking about this, I imagine it's possible that because you're changing the flow rate at a given RPM, it might be possible that you could squeak out an increase(or decrease) in HP as a function of how the engine/intake/exhaust flow dynamics become more or less optimal or consistent with a given cam timing. Although I haven't made of study of it or anything, that notion is contrary to my basic understanding of the matter, but I thought I'd toss it out there in case someone wants to run with it.

Also, (ugh.. there's more..) having milled a head or 3 over the years, I've found that modest increases in compression can have a very noticeable effect on performance. My bet is that at least half of the HP Ron gained was from the increased compression. While the relationship isn't linear, rounding things off for convenience sake, if our engines started at 10:1 compression ratio and you installed my gasket you'd gain ~1 point, so you're now at 11:1, or a 10% gain. That's a pretty large increase! It's true that we're starting at 11ish and bumping it up over 12, but you get the idea. As it is, I had a degree wheel & dial indicator, but you could print out a wheel off the web for free and make a piston stop from a spark plug and a bolt for near nothing, so if you were inclined, you could file your cam sprockets, pay ~$100 for the 3 gaskets and you're good to go.

Oh 1 other thing.. someone(WBU?) asked about putting my bike on a dyno to determine the change in Hp/rpm from my cam timing vs Rons.. If you check out the datalog graphs I posted, you can look at the knee in the graphs to get a good idea. I've made dozens of runs at this point on 3 different surfaces, and the knee is always in the same place, so I think the data is good and can be relied upon. Ride Safe!
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Old 02-22-2018, 06:39 PM   #390
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FWIW, I checked back through a dozen or so runs and found that I can move peak torque around with my tunable pipe, but falls within the range of 5000 to 6800 RPM. Peak HP remains static at 9500 RPM in all Graphs, so it seems from looking at Rons graph, that my peak HP is developed 500 RPM lower than his. Frankly, his cam timing is probably a better compromise. My intake cam is advanced as far as I dared in an effort to determine if I could get some gain in low lift flow by bringing the intake valve open as early and close to the piston top as possible.
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