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Old 08-30-2013, 05:30 PM   #1
rbx123
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CE Certified Clothing, Not just the Armor!

I am current working with a manufacture from France to bring their product line into the US market. They manufacture CE certified clothing. What this means is that the entire garment, seams, material, etc has be certified to meet European safety standards. Nothing like this currently exists in the US.

Here in the US Motorcycle clothing manufactures sell you "so called" protective clothing, but they do not have to meet ANY set standards for safety! They have fancy names for the material that they use such as "RockTex™ 600" & 1000D Carboflex® & so on. What a Joke!

So if you want some real protective gear, contact me and I will see if I can assist you. They ain't cheap, but they ain't any more expensive then the higher end products form Joe Rocket, ICON, Alpinestars or similar.

Attached is info on CE certification as well as info on the pants that I currently wear while riding. Yes, even in the summer! Being a little warm is no big deal considering how safe I feel wearing these pants!
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File Type: jpg DukePants.jpg (90.4 KB, 255 views)
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File Type: pdf ce_personal_protective_equipment_en.pdf (132.5 KB, 11 views)
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Old 08-30-2013, 10:33 PM   #2
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I like 'em. Looks very sharp.
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Old 08-31-2013, 04:26 AM   #3
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Exclamation I'll bet you would like em even more if..........

I told you that at 120mph I feel no wind what so ever coming into the pants! I can't imagine them with the liner in. They might even extend your riding months??? If nothing more.....They are probably safer than what you wear now. Even a high end brand, even leather, may not pass CE certification. If the US products could pass, why would the manufactures not do it? CE (armor only) is used in many US manufacturers clothing.
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Old 08-31-2013, 06:27 AM   #4
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Sounds great, but do they make any vented, CE approved gear? Sounds like they'd be miserable in my normal riding conditions..
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Old 08-31-2013, 12:21 PM   #5
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Thumbs up CE Certified Warm Weather Jackets are available!

Currently Furygan only manufactures warm weather CE certified Textile Jackets, not pants. I have attached some info on them. Yes, the Duke pants are warm...but I use them anyway to be safe. I personally feel that as long as I am cool on the upper half of my body, I'm OK. I regularly wear them in 80-90 degree weather. I have yet to find CE certified Textile pants, but I am still investigating. and talking with other European manufactures. By next summer Furygan will be producing them if not sooner.
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Old 08-31-2013, 01:20 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rbx123 View Post
If the US products could pass, why would the manufactures not do it? CE (armor only) is used in many US manufacturers clothing.
Two reasons: 1) They are not required to by law. 2) The cost to approve (anything) is substantial.

You asked, and those are the two basic reasons. Regarding #1, who really cares, and I don't really want the government trying to decide what I need.
Regarding #2, a) that cost must be passed on to the consumer, resulting in higher overall prices; b) everytime you change an existing model or introduce a new model, it must be recertified/certified. Thus, the cost is continually incurred.

Your product is no doubt of high quality, backed up with approval labels and the data to substantiate the claim. Although I've never inquired, and now maybe I will, I wonder how many suppliers of "Carboflex" and the like have test data they would be willing to share. Thanks for stimulating the desire to have this information. I intend on contacting Tourmaster and others.

As an engineer in a heavily regulated market, I do know that just having the label (CE, NIOSH, NFPA, SEI, UL, Intertek, etc.), doesn't always indicate a superior product. Quite often, exactly the opposite is true. Nor does it necessarily satisfy the real needs and wants of the buying public.
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Old 08-31-2013, 01:28 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by rbx123 View Post
If nothing more.....They are probably safer than what you wear now. Even a high end brand, even leather, may not pass CE certification.
"Probably safer"? Do you or the company have any data to make that claim? If you do, then you will clearly have an advantage in the market and should be able to easily demand a premium for your product, This would be great. Otherwise, it is an unsubstantiated claim. Marketing hype. I really hate marketing hype.

As for anything else not passing CE certification, again, unless it has been tested, there is absolutely no way to know. Maybe your company could do itself a favor and test other brands against the CE standard. Then there would be no uncertainty.

Otherwise, it's just fancy marketing, just like the US products.
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Old 08-31-2013, 05:48 PM   #8
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FYI....

1) Not my company.

2) "Probably", yes in my opinion, nothing more. This is simply based upon what I
see people wearing when I ride.

3) Good luck contacting the manufactures and finding out even basic facts
about the materials used in making their products and what these marketing
terms mean....such as Joe Rockets "Fighter Mesh Technology"...LOL

4) With regard to testing their materials for safety such as abrasion resistance
or seam splitting, Don't you think that if a manufacture had done actual tests
and the results were good, wouldn't they brag about it? Like the company's
that do meet CE approval and do brag about that fact?

5) The following are 2 Quotes from alpinestars about 2 different 1pc Leather
suit.. This one is CE Certified
"A high performance, fully CE Certified, one-piece leather suit offering class
leading protection for the street and track. With advanced technology,
derived from alpinestars extensive track testing in MotoGP and WSB,
premium materials and safety features have been developed to give the
Atem a supremely high level of security and comfort."
This one is not...
"Note: this suit is not available for shipment to the UK, Germany, Spain,
France or Italy"
Wonder why??? Is it the lack of testing to meet ANY type of safety
standards whether the standards have been set by the Gov or at least
even themselves? If if their products have to meet their own safety
standards, what are those standards?You balk at Gov standards. In my
book, when it comes to my safety, I want what I wear to have passed
some testing for minimum protection in the event of a fall!

6) Most all manufactures US or European brag that their garments do in fact
use CE armor. That must mean something!

7) The CE certification on the clothing, at least to me, means that I have
factual evidence that in the event of going down, I will have true abrasion
resistance, faith that it will not split at the seams and come off my body,
and more. I've broken many bones.....they have all healed OK. Thankfully, I
have not had large areas of skin torn from my body while sliding across the
asphalt, God Forbid, and hopefully the clothing I wear will prevent or
minimize it in the event I go down!

8) I don't have the facts in front of me, but I have investigated it. Getting a
garment CE approved/certified is not that costly. The Duke Pants
mentioned above Retail for under $300. Far less than many high end
motorcycle garments that have met NO safety standards.

9) Motoport...Stretch Kevlar... if it's so great how come nobody else uses it?
2 quotes from Motoport...
"No other company can match the tear/abrasion and seam strength of our
apparel. " &
I laugh at the following..........
"The final proof of our claims: If you ever crash in any of Motoport’s Kevlar
blended jackets/pants or one piece suits and the damage cannot be
repaired, we replace the damaged gear for FREE!!!
Also they provide no evidence of the proof behind their claims. The
material can be the best, but if it splits aparts at the seams and comes
off, what good is it.
FYI
The only other product that I could find made out of a similar/possibility
the same material that was made by DuPont and they were gloves.

And to all a good night!
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Old 09-01-2013, 09:25 AM   #9
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More information is always better regarding gear.

I do wish there were standard metrics which clothing could be compared against each other.

Just off the top of my head......

1) Abrasion - the amount of heat created and time for burn through given a standard weight (200 lbs), standard speed (80 mph?) on a standard grade of asphalt. Stitching failure, etc.

2) G Force Transmitted - the amount of force transferred given standard weight, drop force, and speed on a standard grade of asphalt

Right now, it is just guessing, listening to other's experiences, and unfortunately living through gear that failed and gear that worked. (Joe Rocket = bad).

Certifications don't always mean better. I remember when Cycle World did an investigation into helmets about 10 years ago. What they found was that an $80 DOT helmet could work as well as a $800 Snell helmet. What mattered was the G force transmitted to the head. The Snell criteria at the time were a bit arbitrary (2 hits on a small head form, etc.) which didn't measure G forces.

In a nutshell, I still don't know if CE approved = better, or if there are any certifications or published metrics that can help with the decision process.
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Old 09-01-2013, 09:31 AM   #10
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There are standards!

CE Approval..... There are no others that apply to motorcycle clothing. Anywhere!

That is the point of wearing CE certified clothing.

Do you want to take the manufactures word for safety? Funny thing is, that if they are not CE certified, most manufactures of motorcycle clothing mention NOTHING about the SAFETY of their product on their website. Some have testimonials...LOL I can get Grandma to write one for me too!

If you want to wear some thing safe, I can help you out!
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Old 09-01-2013, 01:38 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rbx123 View Post
CE Approval..... There are no others that apply to motorcycle clothing. Anywhere!

That is the point of wearing CE certified clothing.

Do you want to take the manufactures word for safety? Funny thing is, that if they are not CE certified, most manufactures of motorcycle clothing mention NOTHING about the SAFETY of their product on their website. Some have testimonials...LOL I can get Grandma to write one for me too!

If you want to wear some thing safe, I can help you out!
I already do wear something safe and its been PROVEN NUMEROUS times all over the world that it is safe.

http://www.aerostich.com/suits/one-p...iece-suit.html

And unfortunately I've had the opportunity to "test" it myself.
http://www.yamahafz1oa.com/forum/showthread.php?t=81120
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Old 09-01-2013, 03:11 PM   #12
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Agreed Aerostich is Good Quality!

The suit that you posted is Made from 500 Denier Cordura®
At least there is data on Codura's strengths!

But most riders do not have $1000 to spend for a Jacket and Pants or 1 piece suit.

You can ride safe for a lot less!
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Old 09-01-2013, 09:47 PM   #13
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Holy shit, large type AND in bold. Next thing you know the Flex Seal guy will be on here yelling at the top of his lungs how crappy all your American gear is and he has something proven to keep you safe. But wait, there's more!

The only way to prove a certain piece of gear is better than another is to test BOTH of them, then publish the complete data set. In the absence of the data on both, as in this case, the only valid claim is that garment 'A' has been tested against a published standard and passed the test. That's it, end of story. Just because garment 'B' hasn't been tested does not in any way mean it will fail the test or is somehow inferior to garment 'A'.

I've read EN 13595, the CE standard for 'professional' motorcycle gear. It's a good read, appearing to be relevant and fairly thorough. While some of the tests are direct performance tests, such as impact, abrasion, burst strength, etc., some of the tests are subjective based on the opinions of the assessor. In order to gain the CE mark, every test must be a pass, 100%. So, if in the opinion of some assessor garment 'X' doesn't feel "good", it may fail.

As you might have guessed, I'm into this sort of stuff. Performed similar testing and certification many times over the years. I do think the objective tests are good as they can give quantifiable results to inform the customer of the quality level for which they're paying. It doesn't have to be government mandated however, as the industry could voluntarily adopt some test standards and self certify. If the buying public speaks with their dollars, it can and will happen. Once Furygan begins to take over, maybe the other companies will wake up and follow suit.

As for the "fancy names" of various materials, well, that's just for the marketing hype and every company has their own flavor. GoreTex, Sympatex(Furygan), Rocktex, etc.

Negative advertising by attacking others is bad juju, especially when you don't have the data on the competition to back it up.
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Old 09-02-2013, 04:37 AM   #14
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BUT IF GOVERNMENT DOESN'T PUT IT'S STAMP OF APPROVAL ON IT, IT MUST BE NO GOOD!!!

There, I feel better. My sarcasm gland went into overdrive there for a moment.

I wonder if the OP would wear this 'helmet' that the US DOT approves of. I mean it MUST be good, it has a DOT approval!

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Old 09-02-2013, 05:49 AM   #15
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Simply put.....

If a manufacture had evidence of testing their product for safety and it passed successfully. They would brag about it.
I just looked at some Alpinestars smx-plus boots. They are CE certified. The way I found out was a tag inside. They were boasting about.

Guarantee that 98% of the people reading this had no idea CE clothing was even available.

It's your skin, wear what you like. "Fighter Mesh Technology", "600D Carbolex®", "RockTex™ 600"............LOL

I wear CE. I value my skin!
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Old 09-02-2013, 06:09 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rbx123 View Post
If a manufacture had evidence of testing their product for safety and it passed successfully. They would brag about it.
I just looked at some Alpinestars smx-plus boots. They are CE certified. The way I found out was a tag inside. They were boasting about.

Guarantee that 98% of the people reading this had no idea CE clothing was even available.

It's your skin, wear what you like. "Fighter Mesh Technology", "600D Carbolex®", "RockTex™ 600"............LOL

I wear CE. I value my skin!
Just because I don't wear CE doesn't mean I don't value my skin. As I said above, I do wear a PROVEN suit. It has been PROVEN to provide excellent protection since the early to mid 80s and it's NOT CE. So, CE is not the end all of "good" gear.

Now, get off your damn mighty high horse and people might actually start listening to what you have to say. For someone that has less than 20 posts in over 8 years you sure are very vocal.
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Old 09-02-2013, 06:35 AM   #17
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Why are you getting mad at me wlfman?

You keep bragging about your Aerostitch suit which I agree useS tested materials like Cordura and is a good product, BUT YOU SUIT COST $900 +.

Someone can spend 1/2 as much buying a CE certified Jacket and Pants and be just as safe if not more (again in my opinion) don't yell at me again.

Regarding the lack of my posts, what relevance does that have to this conversation about CE certified clothing? I just recently realized the value of CE clothing (3 months ago I did not know it even existed) that's all. And I WANT TO PROMOTE IT!

I said "I wear CE. I value my skin!" I did not say You or Bob or Sally. I said I wear it....Nothing more.
KEEP BITCH'IN AT ME AND SEE WHO LOOKS LIKE THE JERK!
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Old 09-02-2013, 07:22 AM   #18
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Meanwhile, back at the ranch..............

I agree that the more $ you spend doesn't mean that gear is necessarily better.

Not being CE does not mean it is worse than CE approved.

Being CE approved could means it is better than non CE approved.

Again, I'd rather have the test results (G force loading, time for burn through, burst, etc.) and make the decision for myself.
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Old 09-02-2013, 07:30 AM   #19
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WDD

I agree with you!
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Old 09-02-2013, 07:59 AM   #20
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If the US products could pass, why would the manufactures not do it?
Because getting CE certification is time consuming, expensive and requires a lot of extra work. It's even more difficult if you're making apparel as the majority of manufacturing is done overseas.
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