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Go Back   FZ1OA Message Board > FZ1 & Fazer Owners Association > Service & Maintenance > Gen 2 Service & Maintenance

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Old 08-09-2018, 07:30 PM   #21
Wizbyu
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dan diego View Post
I do not find as many opportunities to check the other gears for any slippage but yesterday made a focused effort. I was only able to get the momentary slip in 1st gear (at ~ 7k rpm). The clutch did not slip in 2nd or 3rd.
It dose sound like you have some slipping from what your saying,but you say it only slips in 1st gear and for it to slip and then grab is telling me something is out of alinement or warped ( used steel plates ) did you replace the steel plates along with the fiber plates if so then, let's look at alinement is the dot on the presser plate lined up with the clutch hub/basket, and as you install the clutch cover you need to rotate the arm, is it out of time with the paw/gear, and last of all stack height, it may be possible, if it's to short you could get what is happening now slips at 4k then with stronger springs it would hold till the higher 6k but I'm still trying to wrap my head why it would not keep slipping, unless you were to roll off the throttle when it happens, and then theres oil what are you using, there are some that don't work well with wet clutches.I would take it apart and look everything over , look for hot spots on the steel plates, check to make sure theres nothing binding on the presser plate or that it's not topping out as to not let it hold the plates. Good luck let us know what you find.
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Old 08-10-2018, 05:08 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by WileECoyote View Post
Dude, no disrespect meant. I have never heard of such a thing............. I certainly dont know everything. How can gears slip? They mate on both horizontal and vertical planes. They are also designed so they "grip" gearshaft via a key or keys (usually a spline or keyed) These gears are hardened as are gearshafts. For them to slip would mean a rotation of gear on the shaft.
I suppose it could happen but, catastrophic failure would soon follow....... meaning first gear would never grab and simply be ineffective. If youve seen this in a YZ I suppose someone needs to redesign or strengthen them. Cool?
Just google yz426 or yz450 5th gear slipping, if you want to expand your brain! Bent shift forks, dogs, and other issues can cause a particular gear to "slip" not just pop out.

http://www.supermotoforum.co.uk/arch.../t-17272.html?

Or google fz1/r1/r6 slipping in 1st or 2nd gear, lots of explanations as to how it happens, you don't always loose the gear entirely.

Not at all saying it cant still be the clutch, but since its only in one gear (oddly 1st, it usually happens in 2nd since that's the most abused gear) and after three slipping clutches in this bike, ether its extreme installer error, or something else.

Also not at all saying im right, I admittedly have no idea how the inner workings of the fz transmission work since ive yet to have to dive into one, its just something else to consider if it were me trouble shooting my own bike.

Last edited by fermic37; 08-10-2018 at 05:36 AM.
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Old 08-10-2018, 02:44 PM   #23
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Thank you all for your help. I did some more work on it today but was not able to resolve it. Here is the the results from today.

wizbyu said I should verify "43.1mm - 43.9mm for the stack height". I measured my stack height at 43.3mm so within spec although at the lower side. I added steel plate to see if it made a difference in performance but symptom was the same. Adding the extra steel exceeded the max stack height by 1.4mm but the clutch revealed no obvious performance problems but again not resolving my problem. I plan to remove the extra plate.

I also tried to test my clutch for slippage: "bike is rolling along in 4th gear at low rpms. Whack the throttle wide open. This will load the clutch and if it is bad, it will slip."
The clutch did not slip at all during this test.
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Old 08-10-2018, 03:15 PM   #24
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Did you install the aftermarket clutch? If so what was wrong with the original?

Or did you buy the bike with that clutch in it with it slipping?
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Old 08-10-2018, 03:54 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sparky80 View Post
maybe its not the clutch slipping, but the rear tire spinning up a bit and loosing traction. Since it only happens in first gear, that could be possible.

I had that problem with my stock rear shock... put on a Penske and it went away immediately.
I have to check this possibility out. I have an Elka 3 way shock which I will need to research how to set up properly for my weight. I would be grateful if anyone has any documentation on these shocks. Their website is lacking and their youtube videos I've found so far are not helpful to me.
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Old 08-10-2018, 04:15 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by fermic37 View Post
Did you install the aftermarket clutch? If so what was wrong with the original?

Or did you buy the bike with that clutch in it with it slipping?
I bought the bike recently. I did not detect the slipping clutch during the test ride. I did not hammer the throttle then. After the purchase and when more comfortable on the bike, I was more aggressive on the throttle. It was then I discovered the clutch was slipping. I would grab the throttle and accelerate to about 4k rmps, then the rmps would shoot up with no more power to the wheels. I would clutch in wait for the rpms to come down and then release the clutch and continue on being gentle. As I replaced the old clutch with an OEM clutch, I could see that the old clutch that was slipping was not OEM. The steel plates and the fiber plates were different than the OEM.

After the OEM was installed, I was getting what I believed to be a moment of slippage after which the bike would continue to accelerate. The event is so quick, I am not able to react. I am now considering that the clutch is not slipping but instead my wheel is momentarily breaking traction as another poster has suggested. The momentary event does not happen every time I hammer the throttle. It does only happens in first gear. I will pay attention to the surfaces when it does and does not momentarily slip.

I have a 3-way Elka shock that I am going to try to dial in and see if it has any effect. If anyone has set up guide or advice, I would be grateful to check it out.
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Old 08-10-2018, 04:34 PM   #27
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Was it a high milage bike to warrant the po to install a clutch? Was the bike otherwise stock? Was the po a younger person?

If your tire was spinning you would know and it would keep spinning as you kept on the throttle. .

Only time mines ever spun was when it was 32 degrees out and I just had the restrictions removed in a flash. Normally it just raises the front up in the air at those rpms
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Old 08-10-2018, 06:04 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by fermic37 View Post
Was it a high milage bike to warrant the po to install a clutch? Was the bike otherwise stock? Was the po a younger person?

If your tire was spinning you would know and it would keep spinning as you kept on the throttle. .

Only time mines ever spun was when it was 32 degrees out and I just had the restrictions removed in a flash. Normally it just raises the front up in the air at those rpms
The bike has ~40k. It was well cared for. The story that went with the bike (from 2nd owner who thought it was too much power for him) was the original owner was a service manager at a local dealership so therefore has much aftermarket stuff. Elka shock. Yoshi pipe. Lowered pegs and raised bars for taller rider. Power Commander. Bike has been meticulously cared for. I doubt that the 2nd owner got the clutch to slip. If he did, I've no doubt he would have fixed it.
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Old 08-10-2018, 09:55 PM   #29
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What pressure do you run the rear tire? If near the max rating, you might try lowering the pressure 3-4 psi and see if this has any effect.
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Old 08-11-2018, 06:46 AM   #30
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Pretty sure you’re hazing the rear tire. Not sure how as my bike doesn’t do it normally, but you could have a worn tire, or very hard compound tire. It didn’t slip in the 4th gear roll on then your clutch is fine.

Another thing to check, (but would make a horrendous noise) would be one of the sprockets skipping teeth. With all that mileage I’m sure they’ve been replaced.
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Old 08-11-2018, 08:56 AM   #31
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Oh yeah. I forgot about the front sprocket as a possible cause for "clutch slipping" in the lower gears only. Have you inspected the front sprocket? When were the chain and sprockets last replaced?

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Old 08-11-2018, 04:31 PM   #32
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Oh yeah. I forgot about the front sprocket as a possible cause for "clutch slipping" in the lower gears only. Have you inspected the front sprocket? When were the chain and sprockets last replaced?

Drive sprocket looks fine. I was going to upload picture of mine but have not figured out how to yet. Rear sprocket looks fine and chain too although it may be bit too tight. I will look in the service manual for guidance on that.

I am running the recommend Michelin Pilot tires, front at 35 and rear at 36. I know that recommended is 42 in rear per yamaha.

Not sure what I can check at this time. Also worth noting, it seemed that the momentary slippage happened a little later (6-7k instead of 4k) after ECB springs installed but lately most of the momentary slippage events are happening closer to 4k again. The momentary slippage does not always happen when I hammer the throttle in first. It seems to happen every third time, give or take.

Likely nothing but maybe worth mentioning. When removing old clutch, I inadvertently pulled off the clutch housing off of the spline gears. I immediately replaced it and believe that I have on the same as it came off. But if that were off a tooth, would that matter? Could it present a symptom I am seeing?
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Old 03-06-2019, 08:50 AM   #33
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My problem of momentary slippage in 1st gear only still exists. I captured some goPro footage and posted to youtube in a short video which captures 4 slippage moments from two different camera angles. I would be grateful if anyone has an idea of what the source of the problem may be. Is this more likely a transmission or a clutch issue?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nj_z...ature=youtu.be
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Old 03-06-2019, 08:58 AM   #34
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Unfortunately I have nothing to add, I'm just writing so I can keep reading about this. At 1:50 of the video, you can see the chain doing something weird.

Does this happen with the bike on the center stand and you roll on the throttle as well? You may be able to diagnose a little easier that way.
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Old 03-06-2019, 09:04 AM   #35
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That pic of the drive sprocket looks like the nut may have moved but guess some other folks may fold the tabs of the lock washer differently than what I usually do/see.

I'm the guy that never washes his bikes but do hose down that area with wd40 periodically.
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Old 03-06-2019, 09:27 AM   #36
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Unfortunately I have nothing to add, I'm just writing so I can keep reading about this. At 1:50 of the video, you can see the chain doing something weird.

Does this happen with the bike on the center stand and you roll on the throttle as well? You may be able to diagnose a little easier that way.
The chain slack movement is a result of the slippage event. After seeing it on video, I inspected the chain adjustment to see if there was too much slack and if that was a factor. The owners manual calls for .98 - 1.38" of slack. By the manual, my chains is within specs.

I have not tried with bike on the center stand. I will give a shot.

Last edited by dan diego; 03-06-2019 at 09:54 AM. Reason: addtional information
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Old 03-06-2019, 09:30 AM   #37
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Originally Posted by gotfz1 View Post
That pic of the drive sprocket looks like the nut may have moved but guess some other folks may fold the tabs of the lock washer differently than what I usually do/see.

I'm the guy that never washes his bikes but do hose down that area with wd40 periodically.
The drive sprocket picture in the previous posts are a file photo of a very poor condition example. Not Mine in the photo. I inspected mine and it is fine.
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Old 03-06-2019, 04:18 PM   #38
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I personally can't see any signs of clutch slip but the momentary lurch seen at 40s, 1:03, 1:28 and 1:59 are in my opinion broken or worn dogs on the gear. This is, for example, a known issue on the FJR, caused by inadequate force used to shift. Not a criticism of an owner/rider, it's the way the gearbox works and if the gears aren't engaged with sufficient force, the dogs can slip and the edges wear, making it even more likely, and more wear to occur.

Definitely not clutch, imho.

Short-shift out of 1st and keep riding.
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Old 03-06-2019, 06:31 PM   #39
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Originally Posted by Wizbyu View Post
...warped ( used steel plates ) did you replace the steel plates along with the fiber plates ...look for hot spots on the steel plates, check to make sure theres nothing binding...
I haven't watched your video, but from quickly skimming this thread, I think the above is a good place to start.

AFTER WATCHING THE VIDEO, PLEASE DISREGARD THIS POST, unless you're someone actually experiencing a slipping clutch

Here's some misc. thoughts for you:

Did you check each of your steels on a plate of glass for flatness? Any blueing indicating hot spots? If not perfectly flat or hot spots are present, replace them.

Are you certain that you have the plates assembled in the correct order?
You're aware that the plates are NOT all the same (at least not on a Gen1)?

Did you carefully inspect the slots/grooves in the clutch hub? They tend to get chewed up after a while from the dogs on the friction plates hammering on them. If they're uneven to the point that you can catch a finger nail in them as you drag your finger down the channel, I'd dress the groove(s) with a file to straighten them out enough so that the plates will slide easily without catching or hanging up. Alternatively, you could replace the hub(expensive). Do the same as above for the grooves/channels in the clutch hub.

Are you certain that the center adjusting nut in the pressure plate is CORRECTLY set so that the clutch is disengaging completely? I set mine so that it just touches, then back it off 1/8th of a turn, then lock it down.

Are you certain that your clutch cable & lever is well lubricated & doesn't bind when you move the forks from side to side & that the cable isn't pinched anywhere?

Did you inspect the pushrod for correct length? It sounds ridiculous, but who knows what a PO may have done.. replaced it with who knows what etc.

It may be that it only causes a problem in 1st because that's the gear in which the greatest torque multiplication occurs.

I don't recall if you mentioned it ATM, but I'm going to assume you changed the filter when you changed the oil, to ensure that you didn't contaminate the new oil...

A slipping clutch and a gear jumping in & out of engagement from worn dogs or bent forks etc, don't feel anything at all alike. If you don't know or can't feel the difference, take it to a qualified mechanic who could help you get it sorted. Same goes for a spinning rear tire.

FWIW, I can spin the rear tire on my Gen1 in the 1st couple gears. When my tires get a little time on them (>500 miles typically), the tire will spin a lot under hard acceleration. My datalogger shows that the tire actually slips in 5th and sixth as well likely due to the aero load at higher speeds while under acceleration.

One way to help yourself diagnose your problem, is to accelerate up STEEP hill in 2nd or 3rd. Alternatively, you could ride the brake to accomplish the same thing. The idea is to just drag the brake enough to put a noticible load on the engine while maintaining a steady speed, enough so that you have to give it maybe 1/4 throttle more to hold your speed.

While holding that same brake pressure, apply full throttle briefly. You'll know immediately if your clutch is slipping or not. The way my bike is geared, I would do this in 2nd or 3rd gear at about 25~30mph. Make sure you EASE off the brake and throttle together as you complete your test so you don't create an unsafe condition. If you're at all unsure of what I'm suggesting here or how to go about it, then DON'T. If you do this procedure correctly and quickly, you won't hurt anything, but use common sense. That's the procedure used by professional mechanics to diagnose clutch issues that are hit and miss or problematic.

Finally, worn/badly cupped sprockets causing a skipping chain, "can" feel somewhat similar to a slipping clutch I s'pose. Check your chain tension as well for excessive looseness.

I hope some of this helps you - good luck!

Last edited by longeze; 03-07-2019 at 10:32 AM.
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Old 03-06-2019, 06:32 PM   #40
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I still say it’s the gear box.

It’s not popping out of 1st. And not slipping that bad. I don’t think it’s worth splitting the case for.
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